I’m only going to post part of this discussion, because I think both sides made some interesting points. A Creationist offers his reasons why he believes in Creationism & not Evolution. I like some of what he says, but don’t care for the way he ends. The atheists responds back with good points of his own. I’m open to the possibility that evolution is true (I know you evolutonists can’t stand that I claim evolution as a mere possibility. Tough) 🙂
I’m simply open to both sides because I don’t KNOW who’s right, nor am I all that concerned with who’s right either, although the idea that God used evolution as His chosen mechanism to bring life to earth seems quite bizarre, if you think about it, but I enjoy discussing these issues & I feel that keeping an open mind is the way to go. Too many fundamentalists, ON BOTH SIDES, are far too hyper critical of anyone who disagrees with them. I find all that to be quite silly.
So with that said, here’s the Creationists point & the Evolutionists response.
((my interjected comments are in double parenthesis))
My best evidence for evolution vs. creation is to use my common sense…
If you asked someone whether or not the Pyramids in Egypt were created or developed naturally over time, they would (hopefully) say they were created. Use the same argument for your ipad, your favourite painting, your favourite book…
The reasons would be the complexity of the design, how all the blocks fit together to satisfy it’s purpose, the shape, the size, the symmetry, and the functionality… and yet, none of us were there to witness it being made, so conclusively I cannot say I saw it being built…
It COULD have come together via random winds, combining with the sand, water from rain, heat from the sun, and evolved into its current state ((No, it could not have)). If you believe that the pyramids came into existance that way, then at least you have consistancy in your argument and I will commend you for that. ((nice try, but I seriously doubt any evolutionist fell for that one – lol))
I would use that same argument for the human body or any multicellular organisim.((me too)) The sheer complexity and functionality are mind boggling.((absolutely)) Self regulating pH, temperature, motor functions, sensory perception, honestly amazing.((Yep)) Not to mention things like emotions and self awareness, all of which are honestly incredible.((No argument here)) 🙂
To think that via some process of abiogensis (never been seen) a single celled organisim would then, via random unfocused energy from the closed system of the universe (which I would debate is an open system but that’s another argument), become the being I am today seems well… ridiculous ((yes, it does)). It defies the laws of entropy really ((yep)) (things will go towards chaos without energy input, and even with energy input it has to have some direction to it) ((he makes this point since the sun is obviously an energy source that could be used by the evolutionist – see below)) and moreover it seems improbable if not impossible. ((I’d say more like impossible))
It would seem more likely that the complexity and diversity of functioning living organsims came into existance ON PURPOSE ((I agree)), not by coincidence. Even the smallest ameoba has ribosomes and golgi bodies right down to the carbon atoms that it is made of, all of which operate perfectly to give it LIFE ((& thus we see design)). If it didn’t work exactly how it’s supposed to, then it would be non-life, and we wouldn’t be posting these blogs ((correct)).
Microevolution, sure why not… dogs get bigger ears, birds bigger beaks, monkeys longer fingers, humans stupider ((LOL)), I’ll believe that. But my dog is not becoming a fish, my bird is not becoming a cow, and my monkey is not becoming me ((I’m pretty sure evolution doesn’t teach that your dog is “becoming a fish”, etc.)).
You and me are alive ((that would be “you and I” – sorry, couldn’t resist being a grammer cop just once)), and that is proof enough to me at least that I was created on purpose. I (as well as everything else) came into existence on purpose, by will of he who is called I am. ((here, of course, the atheist is right that the christian here is “assuming” that “his God” created him & not some other God or some other agent that we aren’t aware of. Just wanted to acknowledge that reality. Surely you atheists out there are happy to hear a christian admit such?))
I feel bad for athiests who think their life is meaningless ((they don’t)) and search to find ways to explain how they are a coincidental accident ((yeah, that boggles my mind too)) and de-value their existance. ((they don’t feel they’re “de-valuing” their existence))
I am a gambling man, I love roulette (my favourite sin) and I will put it like this. If you are right, and there is nothing else out there but this, then you have nothing to gain and nothing to lose ((not necessarily true)). If I am right, and there is a God to which you will anwser, then you have everything to lose, and nothing to gain. ((BULL! Yes atheists, I just said bull to this argument that most of christianity gives. Are you starting to like me a little?)) 😛
If you sold your lifes worth and took it to the roulette wheel and your options were red/black with no green, and the payback was nothing on black and 10000x on red, wouldn’t you bet red? ((OF COURSE you’d bet red. DUH!))
Believe in Him my friends because He believes in you. ((and your evidence for this is what? The bible? Hmmm…. keep reading))
We’re all in this together, so buckle up it’s going to be a bumpy ride… ((bumpy rides CAN be fun, enjoyable & totally worth the trip))
The atheist responds:
A couple of comments in reply. First of all I agree with you on the pyramids in Egypt. ((YAY!)) But there’s reason to think life (replicating molecules) are different in a fundamental way. ((well… they’re not the pyramids of egypt, that’s for sure)) 😉
The 2nd law doesn’t say that things can’t organize by natural means. ((nor is there any proof that things CAN organize in natural ways, as far as I know)) It says they don’t organize without an outside power source. Like the sun. ((see what I mean. the sun. of course)) The sun produces organization, ((WHAT???)) like the layering of strata you see at the grand canyon. We can watch water go from liquid to solid (a decrease in entropy). The second law doesn’t say that molecules couldn’t form into patterns that replicated,((nor is there any evidence or proof that they can, right?)) and then nature couldn’t select which molecules are best suited for further replication within a particular environment. ((nature selects? so are you saying “nature” THINKS???)) It says that within a closed system the total amount of useable energy tends to decrease. The earth is not a closed system. We get energy from the sun. ((but like the creationist wisely pointed out, the SUN doesn’t DIRECT this energy, unless the sun too thinks & thus is intelligent))
Sure, if you’re right and God exists and he will be really mad if I don’t think he’s there, then I’d be better off believing in him. ((YEP)) But what if God exists and he’s really mad at people that don’t follow evidence? ((Ooh, gotcha!)) What if he doesn’t care if people believe in him or not, or worship him or not, but he doesn’t care for people that genuinely believe he’s not there but pretend he is out of fear? What if he’s there but he wants me to be honest with myself? ((ooh, the christian must be squirming now & yes, I’m totally with the atheist on this one. surprised? good)) 🙂
See, the question you ask assumes the existence of a vindictive, petty God that gets angry that people don’t tell him how great he is. ((YES! Brilliant point that I too debate with these fundamentalist christians)) But if there really is a God I doubt he’s that petty. ((God I hope He’s not petty – lol)) I doubt he’s insecure ((just what we need, an insecure God)) and needs people to worship him.((maybe worshiping Him is to our benefit?)) If anything I’d expect he’d be more likely to punish people that continue to attribute genocide and infanticide to him just because they’re afraid of upsetting their families or friends or whoever else it is that expects them to be a Christian. ((Slam Dunk sir!)) I can see God saying “You saw that this book attributed infanticide to me and you wouldn’t stand up for my honor and say that no, a good God wouldn’t do this, so this is really not the words of God.” ((Love it. I totally agree. Hope I’m right))
If I’m wrong and I’ll face God I feel pretty good.((so do I)) I’d be more nervous approaching him having pretended ((ooh… slap)) that Numbers 31 is a good example of God’s moral character.((Awesome)) I feel better saying that I realized that if there is a God he wouldn’t do that.((Awesome again)) Should I pretend a good God would act in that way? ((lets all hope He’s not that way)) Should I approach God as too much of a coward to stand up for his goodness? ((I think even God thought about saying Amen to that comment)) There was a lot of pressure on me to believe when I left Christianity and I could have caved to that. But that scares me more than what I’m doing. ((Amen sir. Amen))
I’m more with the christian on the evolution/creation debate, though lots of christians make lots of silly arguments that aren’t based on science. I’m no scientist, so I’m not capable of making any really good arguments on whether or not creationism or evolution is right or stupid. Most christians today believe in evolution, I think. I guess if God used evolution as the mechanism to bring life to its current form, He must’ve had a good reason to do so, that I simply can’t fathom, cause as Christopher Hitchens said (paraphrased) if God used evolution to bring about all life, then He should be held accountable for it & called out on it, for it’s a horrible way to bring about life. I agree, but who’s going to “call out” God? Who will put Him on trial & “hold Him accountable” for His actions? He’s God. Thus, if the OT is correct, then we’re dealing with a very vindictive angry God, unless we’re simply mis-understanding all those wonderful passages (google the dark bible for those passages)
I just loved how the atheist/evolutionist dealt with the christians lame argument that if He’s wrong, you’ve got nothing to worry about, but if He’s right that for some strange bizarre reason you’re in trouble with his God. What a nice God you got there. Oh wait… He LOVES all of us, RIGHT??? We’ll burn in hell for all eternity, if we don’t believe in the correct God, but He LOVES ALL OF US & doesn’t want ANY of us to go to this Hell, THAT HE CREATED & condemned all of us to. WOW!!!
Sounds like God is a bit Schizophrenic, if you ask me.
Oh, by the way, I’m a Christian Universalist. Not a dyed in the wool, absolutely without question Christian Universalist. I’m more of a “I believe in Christian Universalism & I HOPE I’m right, but I’m just smart enough to know that I’m not smart enough to KNOW, so I remain open to the reality that anything I believe COULD be right or wrong. Weird, I know 🙂